I was born
in Darwin. Back on the twenty sixth of February nineteen
fifty five. My maiden name is Calma. For a short time, I
think when I was very young, I lived in Adelaide River
because that's where my parents lived. But we came back
because we had to go to school. So that was when we were
very young. And so basically, I've lived in Darwin all my
life except in the early eighties, I moved to Adelaide for
three and a half years. I lived there with my husband. But
then came back. His name's Andrew Dembski. He's Polish and
he was born in Adelaide. He didn't actually speak English
until he was five. So he was brought up completely like a
Polish person who just happened to be living in Adelaide.
And your family is a culturally blended family? ... a Kungarakan
lady - a Dutchman - a Filipino - a Larrakia lady - and an
Aboriginal man from the Tiwi Islands
Yes, yes
that's right. I'm Aboriginal and from both my mother's and
father's side we're Aboriginal. So, my mother's mother is
Aboriginal, a Kungarakan lady and her father was a
Dutchman. Born in Holland. And on my father's side - his
mother was both Filipino, on her father's side, and on his
mother's mother's side - she was Aboriginal Larrakia. And
my dad's mother was part Filipino on her father's side and
part Larrakia Aboriginal on her mother's side. And my
dad's father, was an Aboriginal man from the Tiwi Islands.
And the Filipino side of your family, were they Cubillos?
Calma side.
Calma, yes. And they lived here. Fortunella Calma was my
dad's mother's father. And so I think that the Filipinos
here are closely related. Like the Calmas and the Cubillos
and a whole lot of others, but we're not directly related
to the Cubillos.
So, when people ask you how you identify yourself, what do
you say?
I say I'm
Aboriginal. Because we were always brought up by my
parents - "You're Aboriginal, but you must respect your
other cultural background - the Filipino and Dutch. But,
first and foremost, you're Aboriginal."
... boogy mans and gaffreys ... and Calma
is for calm people
And do you know much about your Filipino and Dutch
heritage? Has any of that been passed on to you as stories
or whatever?
From the
Dutch side, my mother's side, when my grandfather passed
away, he was ninety-six. So I knew him until I was about
ten. And he actually left Holland when he was about
fourteen. He joined the merchant navy and sailed around
and he settled in America. So he had a family in America
before he took off and came over to Australia. So from the
Dutch point of view, we know a bit about the food and we
were taught a little bit about some of the background. But
from the Filipino point of view, my father - we used to
eat a lot of different Filipino type food. And we learned
the stories, the customs. For example, when people pass
away on the Filipino side, you wait a couple of days for
the body there to make sure that they're okay. We learned
about some of the spirit things like boogy mans and
gaffreys and so we learned about some of the cultural side
as well. And the name Calma is for calm people. So, we
know that side.
A lot of
people say Calma (pro Karmer) and it's interesting - my
husband and I used to go to the Sheraton a lot and two
Filipinos who used to work there used to say, " You know
Calma, that means calm and Calmas in the Philippines are
tall people." And Filipino people often say "You've got
Filipino in you, haven't you?" Which is really interesting
that they often can pick it.
And, so you grew up, basically here in Darwin with a
little bit of time - how old were you when you left
Adelaide River?
Well, we
were born in Darwin but then we went back to live in
Adelaide River. So after I was born we went back there and
I probably was there until I was about four or something
because my brother would have, when we come up here, been
a bit older because my father worked in the Department of
Works. He did roads and so he had a job up here and we
actually moved up and got a government house here.
I know
where we lived when I was in Adelaide River because we've
gone back there but I don't really remember much.
I
think you told me, in our first interview, that Adelaide
River is your Grandmother's country?
Yes, that's
right - my mother's mother's country. Adelaide River,
Batchelor, round the Finnis River way. Darwin River way.
And when you were young, do you think your grandmother
still had spiritual ties to the country, were you brought
up ...?
Yes, yes,
we've always been. That's why we call ourselves mainly
Kungarakan people - which is my mother's mother's side.
And, yes, we went out and we looked at bush tucker. We
used to go to different locations around the place to
visit. My mother's mother also lived at Batchelor and we
used to go down and visit her all the time - every Sunday.
And we'd be telling stories down there and the older
ladies would be making pandanus baskets and stuff so we'd
all be talking about that. So, yes, and I've been out to
visit some of the land out at Finnis River and places.
And did your grandmother teach you about the sites and
things?
A bit about
the sites, yes. She talked a bit about the different
things. Mainly my younger sister Rhonda and my mother and
even my sister Bobette have gone out and done a lot of
things. But, yes, we know about the different sites as
well. And we've been out to visit a number of sites.
So
your family would have been lucky enough to have always
had contact with your country - is that true?
Yes, that's
right. What happened is, I think my grandfather was about
fifty when my grandmother - my mother's mother was given
to him. She was actually given to him before she was born.
They said, when she was in great grandmother's stomach -
"You can have this girl when she's born." He was already
established and had a horticultural business down on our
Kungarakan Land and when they brought in the rules about
Aboriginal and white marriages, because my grandfather was
quite smart and had the means, he divorced my grandmother
on paper and sent my mother, who was about five at the
time, and her sister, Aunty Maddy, who was three - to
Queensland. And he'd pay their fees up to college, you
know, their schools and that, a year in advance and they'd
go over there. But the advantage was that they'd come back
in the holidays and my grandfather kept my grandmother on
as sort of housemaid. And so they always knew their
mother. We always knew our country. My mum knew a fair bit
of language but then, with her being away for long times
and only being back for a short time, she lost a lot of
that language. I think she was about sixteen when she came
back. But the advantage is that we've always known who our
family is. We know our relatives on my mother's side. We
know our relatives on our father's side as well but not as
close. We've always related more to our mother's side.
So
you would have gone to early primary school in Adelaide
River?
No, no. All
my schooling was done here. I went to Parap Infants School
- which I think doesn't exist any more - over where the
Masonic Hall is and that. And then I went to Stuart Park -
sort of like crèche, you know, whatever they call it. And
then I went to Parap Kindergarten. Then on to Parap Infant
School, then Parap Primary School and Darwin High School -
so, all the way through there.
Were there a lot of Aboriginal kids and part Aboriginal
kids at school?
There was
quite a few - yes, quite a few. But a lot of the
Aboriginal kids also went to the Catholic schools. And so
there was a mixture around the place. But, yes, for
example, even when I went all the way up through to Darwin
High School, it was only when I was in third year at high
school that they actually created another high school,
Nightcliff High School. So all the way through, most of
the kids were either at our school or they were at a
Catholic school. So, we mixed in a lot with Aboriginal
kids, yes.
Now, Darwin often sells itself as a very multicultural
community but I wonder if it's multicultural in a
different way to other parts of Australia. Mainly because
- for a long, long time, there's been a lot of cultural
mixing and so on. So, when you were growing up, was that,
prevalent - were you aware of lots of kids of mixed
cultural background?
Yes because
right from primary school with people like Andrerea Lee,
that were in our class. There were a number of Greek kids
- people from different nationalities - from when I was
quite young. We used to have a fishing business and we
used to deal a lot with the Chinese. My parents liked the
food as well. We used to eat a lot of Chinese food - there
were a lot of restaurants here. And just mixing in. And
because my father was a Works Supervisor, he used to have
a lot of people around. Like a lot of the contractors-
Timorese people and people from different nationalities
used to come around and visit us all the time. Greeks,
Italians and that sort of stuff. At school - yes, there
was always a mixture of people around.
We probably affected them more than they
affected us.
Children can often be cruel and if there's some
difference, kids just seem to hone in on it. Do you think
there was any discrimination? One lot of kids picking on
another lot of kids?
There
probably was. There was probably a fair bit of
discrimination. But one of the things I noticed is that I
never thought of it like that, whereas my sisters actually
say "Well, what about when this happened? What about when
that happened?" And I just never thought about it as
discrimination but it probably was. I mean, it was
interesting when I grew up - it was after my dad had died,
actually. My mum and me were talking about when we used to
go on holidays and my father, being in the government,
would get an airfare every second year. So sometimes we'd
fly to places and other times we'd drive and every second
year we'd drive. And I remember that my father used to
always write ahead - to caravan parks and places like that
- to say that we were coming and he'd say we were
Aboriginal and whatever. And I distinctly remember this -
we used to stop sometimes outside the caravan park and my
dad would say "Oh, I'll just go in and see if it's all
okay." And sometimes he'd come back and say "Oh, look, um
- oh no, they're all full, we can't stay here. We have to
go somewhere else." Other times he'd say "Okay, it's all
right - come in." I just think that, that was really good
the way my parents would shelter us from that. But I
remember now seeing those sorts of things and I always try
to shelter people from it. I mean, if you keep racist
attitudes going, that builds into kids and you get people
with chips on their shoulders and stuff like that - which
is no good. So it was really good, the way our parents
sheltered us from it or didn't let us grow up hating
people because of what they did to us. But I know of
things now - and I remember when my father was not allowed
to go into pubs. And then when they passed the rule and
Aboriginal people could do those sorts of things. So it's
around and I remember at school that sort of stuff. I
think one of the good things was that our family - when we
were at school - we were all pretty good, sports wise. And
we weren't too bad academically wise as well. So we didn't
get as much headache and that from the teachers and other
people that other people might have got if they weren't so
academically qualified or if they weren't so good sports
wise, you know?
So, Darwin now, is very different to when you were growing
up. When I interviewed Mary Lee, I asked her whether she
felt that there was a black/white separation and she said
that the white families were isolated. Did you get that
feeling when you were growing up - that there were two
quite different societies or did you mix a lot with white
families?
Well, when
I was a kid we used to mix a lot - and what my parents
also did -they said "You bring your friends to our house."
It wasn't until we were older that we were allowed to
actually go out and visit other people. So all the
neighbourhood friends would come and stay at our place or
whatever. And basically, in the area we were living in,
Fannie Bay, I don't think there were a hell of a lot of
Aboriginal families there. There was more of a mixture of
families. Because not as many people were in the position,
like my father got to. But you've got to know, my father
just didn't get there easily. He actually started off
doing pick and shovel and day to day labouring and then he
built himself up. He used to go away for weeks at a time
and then just come home for the weekends and stuff like
that. And the benefits he got out of that were things like
a house. So, from when we were really quite young, a lot
of the neighbourhood kids were mainly all non-Aboriginal.
But it's interesting, because a lot of my brothers' best
friends married Aboriginal people. So, it's interesting.
We probably affected them more than they affected us. Do
you know what I mean? I think about where a lot of the
people in different families are now. And they're all
married more into Aboriginal families. And so, maybe we
did a bit of affecting the other way. Rather than us being
affected by them - yes.
I was really proud - they named it after
him - Calma Gardens Estate
I
want to ask you about your father. For him to get to the
position he had, would have been really difficult. He must
have been one of the very, very few Aboriginal public
servants at that level?
Back then?
He worked very hard. He worked his way up and he was
really good. I remember when he used to be at work and at
night he'd come home and be doing all his paperwork, about
how to build roads and work out how much stuff he needed
and all of that. He left school when he was, I think,
about fourteen. He didn't have the opportunity and had
sisters he had to help look after. But it was very hard
and he used to control - I think, about a thousand blokes
working on the roads. It's interesting because I look
around and a lot of the Aboriginal mob were employed by my
father building the roads and that. And if you look at all
the road gangs now, you see very few Aboriginal people
employed in that sort of area. And that was one thing that
my father was able to do, I think - help more Aboriginal
people get employment. There are a number of Aboriginal
people that have gone on to be Works Supervisors like him.
A lot of them are retired now. But, when I was working in
the Aboriginal Development Unit, we got a lot of roadworks
- like strategies to get more Aboriginal people building
their own roads. And I came across a lot of those guys
again - Aboriginal guys who had worked their way up. But
it was unusual. It was hard for him and he had to work
hard to get there. But, yes, he did it and he did well.
And did he come from a big family?
He had
about fourteen sisters all together. Seven sisters on one
side and seven on the other. Because after his mother and
father parted, his mother went on to have a lot of kids
and his father went on to have a lot of kids. So, yes, yes
- I'm related to whole heaps of Aboriginal families in
Darwin. You know, all the people like the Hopkins and the
Coopers and the Abalas and people like that on one side
but on my mother's side, there's not as many. But, when we
were young, we used to visit a lot of our relatives. My
father wasn't really a person - I think I'm more like him
- not really extroverted and go out a lot. But my mum -
she's just - we used to go and visit all the rellies, like
that, you know? So she made sure that we all knew who was
who and that sort of stuff.
So
what position did your father hold when he retired?
Well, at
the time he died, in 1979, he was a Permanent Works
Supervisor but he'd been acting for about three years as a
Technical Officer - grade three I think, or something like
that. And so that's where he finished. When all the new
Civil Engineers would come out, they'd sort of work under
him for about a year and then go off and be his bosses and
stuff like that. So, yes that's probably where he finished
up.
I
suppose that I'd be correct in saying that, even today,
Aboriginal people are still not in responsible positions
in the mainstream public service. It's still quite rare?
Yes, yes.
Although, I was talking to some people from the Northern
Territory Public Service just last week. And there's a lot
more around. They reckon now, in the Northern Territory
Public Service, there's probably six percent Aboriginal
people. But a lot of them would be in Aboriginal areas,
yes. A lot of people feel comfortable in that area. But,
my Dad - I was really proud when after he died they built
those houses at - they call it four and a half mile, next
to the overpass on Bagot Road - and they named it after
him - Calma Gardens Estate - which is really nice.
And, so when you were growing up - it wasn't a dominating
part of your life, being Aboriginal - in terms of
discrimination?
Sorry, can
I just pick you up on that. You're saying two different
things. I was brought up to be Aboriginal and everything
we did was Aboriginal, right? Like, we'd go out and get
our food - we'd go hunting and we'd sit down and talk
about our relatives and our families and we'd do things
like that. And I grew up not being affected a lot by
discrimination that I know of - okay? I might have been,
but I just didn't know it. However, the rest of my family
felt it a lot - depending - like my brother used to play
in Waratah's football team and he said they used to be
quite racist there - different people were. So - I think,
because of my character, who I am - it probably didn't
affect me as much. It doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Sorry, I just needed to correct you on that.
I'm glad you did and shouldn't have put those two things
together.
I used to make teenager doll clothes - and
we'd put on little plays for our parents and I'd make all
the costumes
How did you get into fashion design?
Oh, it was
because my mother used to make our clothes for us a lot.
And when I was about six, I used to watch her making our
clothes and we'd have all these little dolls and that. So,
I used to make teenager doll clothes and knit things for
my dolls. Then, as a family, as kids, we'd put on little
plays for our parents and I'd make all the costumes. So
then I was just really interested in it and I'd just sew
for myself and my Auntie Maddy really encouraged me too
because she used to get me to make her clothes. So, when
she'd go out, I'd make all these clothes with fancy
beading work and I taught myself how to draft and all
that. So it was a real interest area for me and actually,
I was in leaving and I tried to get into design school but
I didn't. I sat for a test but I wasn't accepted in there.
And so then I was going to leave and set myself up with a
sort of apprenticeship with one of the people here but my
father talked me out of it. He said, "No, no, you can
always do that later - stay at the government - stay in
high school, finish your matric. Do all of that and then
..." So I stayed. I just went into the government then.
And I'd sew on and off for people and design things and do
things for kids and that. And when I lived in Adelaide I
did a lot more of sewing things and stuff, but... That's
how I got into it, really - making myself clothes. I used
to make myself a new outfit every Friday night and
Saturday night I'd go out and all that sort of stuff. So,
you know, make sports uniforms. I used to make my brother
clothes to wear when he was a teenager. Make him safari
suits and stuff. So, yes.
And these textilesi
- are they your designs?
No, a lot
of these aren't. Most of them aren't actually. Well, all
of them aren't I should say. Except that I've done the
beadwork and things like that. I used to do a lot before.
I used to do a lot of batik and hand painting and tie
dying - all of that textile stuff. But when I really got
set up in this shop and - even before that - there's just
so much beautiful artwork around and none of it was being
promoted, so I thought "oh well, why do my stuff when I
can do other people's?" But now that things are going
through, I'm going to get back into doing my own stuff. I
just had jobs and other activities to do that really
didn't give me a chance to spend time doing my own textile
stuff as much. So I've now put myself into a situation
where I've got time to do that so I'll be doing a lot more
of my own things.
I
think you're pretty amazing - because you've got a
full-time job at ATSIC as well. What do you do at ATSIC?
Until
recently I worked for staff development and training
managers for the Northern Territory, so just looking after
all the staff - organising for them to go on different
training courses, giving advice in different areas. But
from about September, they did a restructure and before it
was for the whole Northern Territory, but now I only look
after Darwin, Katherine and Nhulunbuy. And I deal with
recruitment as well. And personnel type issues, yes. Yes,
it's really looking after the development of staff I
think.
... the old people used to tell us all the
different stories - but now I don't see much of that
happening.
I
want to ask you a really tricky question now. Looking back
twenty years, or even maybe twenty-five years, do you
think Aboriginal people really are better off now than
twenty-five years ago in Darwin?
Twenty-five
years ago, I would have been about twenty. I was already
married by then. It depends on which angle you're looking
at really. Nowadays there's a lot more unemployment, I
would say - to back then. Back then a lot more Aboriginal
people were employed and had a lot more activities to do.
They were doing things like meeting up and linking up with
people a lot more. Because it was smaller too, they could
get around a lot more. Whereas nowadays, Darwin has spread
out a lot and well, I suppose you've got a bit more public
transport as well. A lot more Aboriginal people are
unemployed I think. And because there's a lot more
non-Aboriginal people up here, it's changed how things
are. Back then it was mainly Aboriginal people in the
public service and in the defence forces. There wasn't a
huge amount of non-Aboriginal people and people from
overseas and that. And so Aboriginal people could do a lot
more things than we'd be able to do nowadays. On the other
side of it, the Aboriginal people that want to, can get up
there and get involved and do things. Back then, a lot of
the older people were still able to be respected and do a
whole lot of things and get younger people to do stuff.
Whereas these days, as we get older, a lot of the elders
are dying much younger and so we have problems in that
situation a bit more. Because there's not as much
direction for young people. But I think - I don't know,
whether it's better or not as good - as they think. I
think the whole world's changed a lot. Up here, back then,
everyone knew that it was their home town and they were
proud of it and they felt stronger about it. Nowadays,
because there's a lot more people here, it's not - like
years ago, you'd be able to walk down the street and you
knew lots of people. You'd go places and knew everyone.
And it was like your town. But these days there's so many
other people here, it's not - I mean it's not as much ...
So I don't know whether that's answered your question.
Yes, it's
changed. It's changed a fair bit. You can't turn back the
clock though. I mean, with a lot of the stuff - there's a
lot of things that I would try and change if I could. Like
get families to have opportunities to mix in with the rest
of their family. To get a lot more employment going so
that people feel prouder about themselves. And, sort of
try and get - you know, like the old people used to sit
down and tell us all the different stories and all that
sort of stuff. But now I don't see much of that happening.
So, you're actually losing a lot of the cultural side of
things. That's why I think what you're doing is really
good. And I encourage a lot of other people to do it
because that way you don't loose stories because that's
what make people strong I think. You can call back on the
stories.
Now, talking of stories, did your grandparents speak to
you in language at all ?
I never
knew my father's parents. But on my mother's parents'
side, the Dutchman never spoke to us in language
(laughing) but, yes, my grandmother would. She'd say
phrases and that sort of stuff. Not such as telling us a
whole lot of stuff about it but, you know, different
words. My father would use would use some of the Filipino
words and from my mother's side as well. But not a lot of
language.
But did you understand much of it? Because there's a big
difference between speaking and understanding a language.
Yes, well,
a lot of the time too - when they were talking in
language, my nanna would use body language as well. So
you'd sort of pick things up by the way they were saying
things where you might not necessarily understand
completely. Which is just totally different to - my
husband speaks Polish and the family all speak in Polish.
And yet, you're put into more of a foreign situation, I
think. And because it's something that you're really not
familiar with, it's not like you can lip read or you can
pick up on the body language quite often. It's quite
different.
... they could all speak English but they
just found it easier to speak Polish
Did you meet Andrew in Adelaide?
No, in
Darwin. That's what I was saying. Darwin was a small
place. I used to see him walking down the street when I'd
be walking down with my girlfriend. And I happened to be
working in the same area as him as well.
He was
working in the public service. He actually came to Darwin
to get away from Adelaide. He sat for the government exams
and they said to him "Well, you can go to New Guinea or
you can go to Darwin or you can have a job in Adelaide"
because he did really well. But he first thought why would
he go to Darwin because he knew no one. His parents knew
no one up here. And then he realised that was an
advantage. So he actually come up to get away from his
parents so he could grow as an individual, yeah. And
that's how we met.
Is
he an only child?
No, he's
got two brothers as well. He is the eldest. His parents
were in Australia six months before he was born. And he's
got a brother that's a couple of years younger than him
and his youngest brother is six months younger than me.
His parents were married just before the War and then they
were separated for ten years. And then they found each
other and came to Australia. So I think everyone was
getting to know each other a fair bit, family wise. He was
involved a lot in the Polish community down in Adelaide.
And that's why I think when he had the possibility of
coming to Darwin, he wanted to get away from all that sort
of stuff for a while. Not from his culture or from his
language or anything. He likes that, but he just wanted a
bit of freedom, that's all.
So, you met Andrew and were married here, went back to
Adelaide - when you first met Andrew, were there many
misunderstandings or strains on your relationship?
Probably
not as much then because I was about nineteen and he was
twenty-four. No, there wasn't really then. But sometimes
it was a bit tricky finding out, you know, when we were
talking about different issues and stuff like that. But
generally speaking, no, there wasn't. Because basically,
we got engaged about three months after we first met each
other. And then we were engaged for about six months
before we got married. And I remember his mother was very
concerned about the mixed marriage between Polish and
Aboriginal. Between Polish and anything. She wanted him to
marry a Polish girl. And she was very worried and we
talked to her a fair bit about whether it should happen.
And the good thing was that his younger brother was quite
happy. He said I was light enough to be a tan being
Aboriginal. Because they just couldn't imagine, back then,
what Aboriginal would be like. But not long after we got
engaged, we went down to Adelaide for a friend's wedding
so I got to meet the family. And, yes, his parents, his
whole family except for his youngest brother, who was
doing exams, came up for our wedding and everything went
well. But, the first big fight was - after we got married,
we drove back to Adelaide with the family and stopped in
Alice Springs that night. There was Andrew and me and his
mother in one car and in another car his brother and his
father and another car and another couple, another car -
and we had our first big fight on the night after we got
married. Because everyone would be talking in Polish and
because the other people in the car were all Polish or
whatever, they could all understand. So I actually got
really upset. I said that obviously if his parents were
talking in Polish, they must be talking about something
they didn't want me to know about. So, I just walked out.
And I think that created some problems. We got over that
but as far as I was concerned, it wasn't like his parents
couldn't speak English. His father worked for many years
and his mother used to teach at a school so they could all
speak English but they just found it easier to speak
Polish. Whereas, as I said, "As far as I'm concerned, you
might like to speak another language but if I'm here and
I'm the person who can't understand it ..."
It
shuts you out.
Exactly. So
that's the sort of thing. We sorted all that out. They
didn't talk Polish when I was there. I tried to learn
Polish but I have a problem. I'm dyslectic. Not
completely, but in lots of ways. And I can't say a lot of
k's and z's and t's and that and that's what Polish is. So
I had to give up that. But I do have a lot of problems
with a lot of Aboriginal stuff like that too. Because
they're all r's and t's and, you know, all different
languages and that as well, so that was a bit of a
problem. But, the Polish culture - the food and all the
festivals - we used to do all that sort of stuff, so I
learned about all those sorts of things.
And do you think if you'd have been, sort of 'coal black',
you would have been accepted as easily into the family?
Don't know.
I don't know. If I didn't speak as good a language, I
might not. Yes, you don't know. You have no idea, you
can't imagine. I mean Andrew knew a lot of Aboriginal
girls before he knew me because he used to play basketball
when he first came up here. So he was quite used to
Aboriginal people. Particularly the urban mob. And when we
got married, we'd go down and visit all the rellies at
Adelaide River and that all the time and he'd get to be
involved so he got used to Aboriginal people from the bush
as well. And even before he knew me, he used to go down to
the Barunga Festival and things like. So he was quite at
ease with Aboriginal people. It's just that, down in
Adelaide back then people didn't come across Aboriginal
people that often. There were Aboriginal people there, but
they just probably didn't notice them. So, that's why it
was a bit strange.
... the lifestyle was totally different to
Adelaide. So we came back
And so how long did you live together in Adelaide?
Well, we
got married and were up in Darwin for about four years
before we moved down there. And we lived there for three
and a half years and then came back because my sister,
Rhonda, was getting married and I wanted to come back for
that. Then we decided that we just wanted to move back to
Darwin. Because the lifestyle was totally different to
Adelaide. So we came back.
So, you weren't happy in Adelaide?
Yes, we
were okay. We moved down there to be more involved with
his parents but his parents, at the time, were still quite
independent and they didn't need us to help them with a
whole lot of stuff. Actually, they really didn't like it.
So therefore, we felt that well, if we don't need to be
there for that, we may as well come back to Darwin where
we like it. And I think Andrew gets on with my family a
lot better as well. And he likes the environment and so
that's why we came back.
In
our last interview you said that there was a time where
Andrew didn't participate much in Polish cultural affairs.
When he was
up here, not down there. He did down there. When we were
up here he just didn't bother to get involved with the
local Polish community when we came back in the early
eighties. And he was still involved with the ones down
South. He's still part of the Polish Credit Union and
we've still got land down there so we're involved with a
whole lot of stuff. But, he didn't do it up here. There
were a whole lot of people he didn't know. And it was only
after we had the shop, at Cavenagh Street, we had the name
up - "Lenore Dembski, Paperbark Woman" - the local Polish
people came in and were pushing for him to get involved.
So, that's how he got involved but there's a whole lot of
things happening down South, like with the Polish scouts
and things that he's still involved with. And up here he's
involved with visits by the Polish Ambassador and all that
sort of thing but not to the extent that his family was
down south.
Both of you would have been growing up at a time when
government assimilation policy was still pretty prevalent.
Do you think that either of you felt the pressure to be -
you know, 'like white Australians'?
No, I don't
think so. No I don't think so because we've always done
the sort of things that we like to do - always. So, I
don't really think we felt pressure in that sort of way.
Like, we've never worried about being as good as everybody
else or - probably because we don't have kids as well.
Might have been a bit different if we had kids because
other kids do this or whatever. But, no, I don't think,
from that angle. I always think, when anything like that
happens, "Well, what's the best thing in your heart?" And
I always remember that I'm Aboriginal and I try to think
well what's the best way to do this?
Apart from your work at ATSIC, are you active within the
Aboriginal community?
Yes. Yes.
For example, to give you an idea. I was President of the
North Australia Aboriginal Legal Aid Service and involved
with Aboriginal Women's health - the medical service up
here. One of the projects I'm working on at the moment is
with this Aboriginal lady who's a health worker and is
really keen to get involved with continence maintenance.
You know, both wee and pooh and that sort of stuff and
she's got all the knowledge and the experience but
basically she doesn't have the administrative background.
So I've been involved with her for the last, about five
months. Writing the submission, going to meetings and all
that so that it can all happen. Yes, there's lots of
things that I get involved with really. Now I've got more
time, I get involved a lot more in stuff to do with
Kungarakan. My youngest sister has taken on a lot of the
burden for that sort of thing. But now - I chose to stay
in my current job which is pretty good, it's an APS6 with
a pretty good salary really, for what I do and because I'm
quite experienced, I can do it quite easily. And I don't
have a lot of hassles and worries after work so I've been
able to - like, she phoned me up yesterday and said, "oh,
look, we've got this really big meeting to do with Brown's
Mine", which is a big mine on our traditional land. And
she worked out which day I can be going down because we're
going to be doing a whole lot of sites at Berry Springs
which is an area that we're supposed to look after. And so
she said which is the best day for me - so now - it's the
path you choose I think. For many, many years I worked in
departments and did advisory stuff to do with Aboriginal
mob, to help, generally everybody. And now I'm trying to
still help people but also help our own mob more. I mean,
today my mum turned sixty-nine and you know, everyone is
getting older, so we really need to make sure things
happen. And so I think it's the choices you make - which
way you go. And part of the reason I keep this shop open -
my work at ATSIC subsidises this shop - you know, it's
really hard times at the moment. But, to me, this gives an
avenue for a whole lot of Aboriginal people. And
non-Aboriginal people benefit from it as well. But, to me
it's an outlet for a lot of Aboriginal people to keep
things happening. So that's been an involvement in my own
way - for the Aboriginal way. Doing those fashion parades
I just did at the Olympics - I mean, I never got paid for
that. Actually, there's this woman at work that's been
pushing me to take leave without pay from ATSIC. So, apart
from everything else, not getting paid, I'm probably going
to loose two and a half thousand. But, to me, I had to
debate - do I do it or don't I do it? I mean, basically
you've got at least sixty communities and individuals
getting highlighted at the top level. So that's a
commitment towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
people and culture at the moment. But it seems that people
just wouldn't even realise. They just think, oh, yes ...
But how many people have put on a show like that for
nothing? No mainstream people. They get paid a lot of
money to do that sort of thing. So, that's my
contribution.
So
you use the shop and the clothing to promote Aboriginal
culture?
Yes. Like
having these fashion parades down at the Powerhouse Museum
and the Olympics. Basically I wrote all the submissions to
get all the models' airfares to go down south. And all I
got was money for the airfares. I didn't get any money for
administrative time or anything - so that designers from
Western Australia could get down there. I pulled it all
together. So all of that is non-paid stuff. But to me,
that's a contribution. I believe that everyone contributes
in different ways. Some people contribute because they can
march and they might protest. Other people could
contribute because they get out and talk about issues.
Everyone has their own way of doing things. And, so this
is mine, my way.
I made Bigoss - I Australianised it a bit
and all the Poles really love it
And, now with both of you being involved in cultural
stuff, is there any clash? Do you do you become involved
in Andrew's cultural activities and clubs?
I think
that we do, in lots of ways, mingle together - not clash.
Mingle together. Basically I couldn't do a whole lot of
the Aboriginal stuff that I do if my husband didn't
actually understand about culture and all that - even
though it's Polish - and about how important it is for the
stories and the language and all that sort of stuff. He's
taken a lot of the responsibility at home so I could
actually do those sorts of things. In the way I do the
same sorts of things for him. I try to be as supportive as
I can with all this stuff to do with the Polish side. For
example, when the Ambassador was coming up, they needed
invitations to be sent out so I did all the stuff on
Photoshop. I scanned in the eagle - which is the symbol
for the Poles - and I set it all up so they could get all
the invitations done. I do things like that. And, for
example, they've had Christmas do's and there's a couple I
haven't gone to - but for the last one I made Bigoss which
is a Polish dish and I just Australianised it a bit. All
the Poles keep asking for it because they really love it.
You know, like - oh yes, they clean it all up and so, you
know. The first time I just made it and the second time -
when the Ambassador was there, there was this special
request that I would make Bigoss for the do. I mean that's
how we met, isn't it really?
ii So, yes, there's things like that.
Sometimes I've been involved, sometimes I'm not -
depending on what it is. But, he'll help me out with
things because he's got a lot of background. To me, it's a
really true partnership between him and I. And, I am very
fortunate that he understood culture and with his Polish
identity - you know, there's lots of people, in marriages,
that just wouldn't put up with dropping everything, going
to meetings and doing all this. Even now he says "you're
doing all this and you're not even getting paid ..." We
are subsidising the fashion parade. Him and I subsidised
the fashion parade. No-one would understand that. But
basically that's pretty good. And all our assets have had
to go to subsidise that sort of thing. That's why I was
really pleased that he came down for it. Because that way
he could see how wonderful it was as well. Particularly
since he was down there getting involved because they were
administratively not so good backstage so he just stood
there and made sure the person came out and followed
instructions. He had to get involved with everything like
that. And he arranged it. So he did that to help highlight
all the Aboriginal stuff. So he does help a lot and I help
... He helps me more than I help him. When we were down in
Adelaide, I used to help. Particularly when Solidarityiii
was going through and I would do a whole lot of stuff like
that for him. But, yes he's done a hell of a lot more for
Aboriginal stuff than I've done for Polish.
So, it's a symbiotic relationship?
Yes, I'm
very fortunate and I think Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people are very fortunate. That's what I was
saying, everyone does things in their own way. Like with
the Sea of Hands how a lot of non-Aboriginal people can
really, you know, push. They don't realise how much
strength they have. It's just different ways you have of
doing things.
Can I just
say one thing?
Yes, yes.
We talked a
lot about my father and I talked a bit about my mother. My
mother, because she was always at home, always thought
that she didn't really contribute to a lot of stuff. But I
said to her that if she wasn't at home to guide us and
give us stuff that we wouldn't have had - you know, all of
my family were pretty successful. Not necessarily money
wise, but successful in what we can achieve and how we're
going and - we're still all here. (laughing) You know, we
try to bring up the grandkids in a good way. And I said to
her - she played a huge role in it. And I think that
people underestimate it. You think that it's just the
people who earn the money. But it's people at home, like
Mum, who really support people growing up and a lot of
mothers - and I suppose men these days as well - don't
realise the important role they have. And influencing in a
good way as well as guiding. And my mum, because she only
went to school until she was about sixteen - she might
have been about seventeen. But, she said that in the
schools, they always put her back a class - it was mainly
all whitefellas at the boarding school she was at, so she
didn't really know a lot in the study ways. But I said to
her that what she knows is basic stuff which is really,
really good. She's very organised and she does a lot to do
with our cultural stuff as well. So, I just wanted to say
that she's had a very important role - I think.
I
didn't ask you how many brothers and sisters you have.
I have one
brother and two sisters. But I actually have a half
brother too, because before my father met my mother, he
was with another lady. And so he's got an older son. I
didn't know until I was about sixteen. Down at the rugby
Mum said, "You see that bloke over there? That's your
Dad's eldest son, you know?" "Oh, yes - so Des Mayo ..."
How did you feel about that when you found out?
Oh no, I
felt - I mean that happens a lot. I was surprised but if
you looked at him, he was a dead ringer for my father. He
looks just like my father did. And, it was interesting
because when they had their little kids and they were
growing up they insisted on bringing them around to meet
my father because they wanted their kids to know their
grandfather. So, actually my dad knew them for about four
or five years before he died. So it was really good that
they wanted their kids to know. So that's how it sort of
got back into the family. But I have a brother, Tom who's
eighteen months older than me and he's married to a
non-Aboriginal lady from Adelaide called Heather and they
have three kids. And they've been living in Vietnam for
two years now. Before that, for four years, they lived in
New Deli helping with education for indigenous people -
not Aboriginal but those guys over there. And I have a
sister, Bobette, who runs my shop. And she has two
daughters and her eldest daughter has two kids. And my
youngest sister, Rhonda, is married to a white guy from
Adelaide as well. So, we've got three Adelaide people in
the family. And they've got one son, Jethrow. And my
sister Bobette, was married for a long time to a white guy
from Melbourne but they sort of split. So, that's
interesting - with the family. It's not a huge family but
it's very close. And one of my aunties has been married to
a Hungarian guy for a very long time. My other auntie was
married to another Aboriginal guy. So, we've had
Aboriginal and non-Aboriginals in the family.
So, the Calmas are citizens of the world.
Hey? Yes,
we got a lot of different people that we ...
Yep, this is your culture - so you feel
like you belong - but you must recognise the other side
that's in us as well
So
do you think it was your parents influence that
strengthened your ability to achieve?
Yes. I
think, knowing where you're from and your parents, from
when you are young, saying to you "Yep, this is your
culture" - so you feel like you belong. But always saying
to us "but you must recognise the other side that's in us
as well." And I think that helps. And the stability. Even
though my father was away a lot working on the roads, some
holidays they'd take us down to wherever he would be - in
the road camps. So we'd live down there and we'd actually
see what he used and ... And so I think, yes, having a
family life that supported it was good I think. I mean, my
mum was used to hard work from when she was very young,
working on the farms. When she left school they used to do
all the market gardening and all that sort of stuff. So
she was a hard worker. And I also think having
grandparents that you know ... Even though my dad's
parents weren't around, we knew about them. I think that's
really good, knowing that. That's why a lot of people from
the Stolen Generation - there's a really big gap in their
lives. And I think that's why people who are adopted -
they're okay and then when they find out they're adopted,
it often becomes a gap, you know? Or there's sometimes
just this feeling. But we're lucky - we haven't had that
gap. And I think that's a real ... And Andrew's the same.
He knows his parents. He may not have known his
grandparents but he knows of them and he knows where his
parents came from in Poland and about Polish history, the
people and all that sort of stuff.
So, without the foresight and determination on the part of
your grandparents, you possibly may not have had that?
Even though it split the family up.
Yes, yep.
Yes, well, Grandad - on my mum's side - it split the
family up and, and made it very hard. But even though they
were split up, they always knew where they came from and
who was who. So they always still knew who their relatives
were - all our relatives down at Adelaide River and all
that sort of stuff. They knew who was there and who they
were. And I think that's a very strong thing. Whereas, if
you just don't know, it makes it really very hard. But if
you know and you know why you're apart, it's different.
It's like my dad working - going out and coming back for
weekends every third week or every fourth week, or
whatever. Even though we were apart, it was still secure.
We knew he was there. We knew what was happening. It
wasn't that we didn't know and there was always anxiety.
And it's sad - it's pretty bad that they happened to be
over in Queensland because they lost their language and
that sort of thing - fluent speaking of the language - but
it's a very small thing to pay, when you've got everything
else. I think anyway. Because you can always re-learn your
language. They still use the stories and locations and
they still go out to all of that. And you can always
re-learn it I think. You still know, because it was safe
whereas a lot of these people have no idea.
And a lot of fathers, or many in wider society, didn't
acknowledge their children. Like, George McKeddie's
obituary stated that he never married - that he died
without children and yet there's a big mob of Cubillos who
all claim him as their ancestor.
Yes, yes
that's right. And that always leaves a gap and if you
don't have the right character - not the right character,
but different kids have different characters and it can
just wear away. If you grow up with a gnawing and you
don't have the character to, sort of overcome it, then it
just gets really bad. Yes. Which causes a lot of people to
drink - because they just loose things in a way and can
never get away from it. But you're right. Yes, Mary Lee
and her family - yes. It's hard. We know that my father's
Mum and Dad weren't married but we know who they were and
all that sort of stuff and on my mother's side, what
happened and all that. But at least she knows. That's what
I'm saying, I think it's that knowing. That's a very
important thing.
... there're people of all different
backgrounds and some are nice people, some are real
ratbags
Aboriginal people of mixed descent have, in fact often
been hurt by Aboriginal - if you can talk about parts of
people - 'fully' Aboriginal people. And perhaps that's a
defensive thing as well. You know, "you're not
Aboriginal". Have you ever found that - ever been told
that you're not Aboriginal by another Aboriginal person?
Sometimes
that hurts. I can't remember if they've said it to me but
I know they've said it to other people. But I'd just say
"I know what's in my heart." Like "It doesn't matter what
you say, it's not going to affect me because I know." I
mean, of course it hurts sometimes when they say that. But
you've got to try and remember - you know what's there and
there's a different route to what people - it doesn't mean
you're not Aboriginal, it's just that you're a bit more of
a mixture of things. And it's how you're brought up. You
can be a dark skinned person, if you're not brought up in
an Aboriginal way - you're not necessarily ... It's how
you're brought up and what your background is as well, I
think. But, yes, you're right. There's plenty of people
that say that - not that you're a half Aboriginal or a
quarter cast or whatever terms those people use. But, yes
and there's quite a lot of people that can be quite white
in the skin. They get really affected because they don't
look Aboriginal - stuff like that - yes.
I've heard it as well from non-Aboriginal people - saying
well, you know, these people aren't really Aboriginal. You
know, "You look at her - she's as Aboriginal as ..."
Yes. The
people I get it more from are the white people. For
example, certain committees that I've been on when I was
in the government- people would say "Oh, you wouldn't know
because you're not Aboriginal." They'd have no idea of
your background, but they just look at and you and assume
that because you can talk English and you know the
administrative ways of doing things that you wouldn't know
anything about the Aboriginal side of things. And that
sort of stuff hurts. It occurs a lot and they refer to a
lot of it too as institutional racism. You know, the way
they do things and go through ... But, yes, I've got it
more from other public servants. Particularly if they
don't agree with you on different things they pull out
those cards. And, so once again, you've just got to
remember - you've just got to try and think about who you
are and what you are and you know that's correct and
that's what gives you the strength.
Do
you ever feel patronised - in the sense that people are
talking to you in a certain way or acknowledging something
that you're doing through political correctness, rather
than as a person?
Sometimes.
I don't know whether it's because of the Aboriginal side
of things or because my ... I mean, as an example, with
that continence maintenance thing, where I'm helping this
old Aboriginal lady - she wasn't keen on certain things
and I wasn't keen so we managed to set up a teleconference
with these people in Canberra. And this lady in Canberra
was just assuming a lot of things. And I think she saw my
name and was deferring to me on a lot of stuff. And the
lady questioned a whole lot of things. So I said to her,
"You have no idea about my background ..." and I just
rattled off a few different things. And that changed her
mind on some stuff and her attitude a bit. So I don't know
whether that's necessarily about race or more about just
assuming you don't know these things.
So, was the other person, on the other end of the
telephone, Aboriginal?
No, no. But
I mean, I've tended to find - with meetings and all that -
a lot of Aboriginal people will pay you the courtesy of
not knocking you because you're Aboriginal. So if you're
at meetings and all that sort of stuff, it doesn't matter
what you look like and who you are, they are more patient
and courteous. That's what I've found.
I think
that a lot of these things they are saying about the
'yellow fellows' and all that - a lot of that occurs when
people are angry and upset. They don't have another way of
getting what they want so they just sling off. If they
can't get their own way they say that sort of thing. I
don't think there's Aboriginal politics involved. There's
Aboriginal politics too. It exists just as much as
non-Aboriginal politics. And I think it's just a matter of
knowing how to cope with it and work with it. But yes,
there's a lot of it going on as well. I think of it like
this - in wider society, there're people of all different
backgrounds and some are nice people, some are real
ratbags - and amongst Aboriginal people, there's bound to
be people like that as well. So you've just got to learn
to cope with those people, I think.
... it's what's in my heart and how I've
been brought up - and it's me - it's how I live and
everything
Is
there anything that you think I haven't covered or
anything that you want to add?
No, I don't
think so. I just think that it's very important - what
you're doing - this sort of thing. The things you've asked
me and I've had to answer questions. There was one
question - I just thought it interesting that a few years
ago - probably 1993 when I was still in the Northern
Territory Open College - this particular night I was going
out for dinner down in Alice Springs with a guy who was
the head of the Open College. And he asked me "Why is your
Aboriginality so strong?" That's the question he asked me.
And I said "Probably because it's what's in my heart and
how I've been brought up all the way along." And it's me -
it's how I live and everything. Because he was a white guy
- he just couldn't work out how I was so strong in those
areas, yet I probably don't look it - or whatever - and
how I talk and all that. I thought one day I must write an
essay or story about why I feel my Aboriginality is so
strong.
(i) i.e. the textiles in Lenore's shop,
Paperbark Woman
(ii) Lenore and I met at the Multicultural
Council's Annual General Meeting in 1999 and I asked her
then if she would participate in this project.
(iii) Led by Gdansk shipyard workers under
the leadership of Lech Walesa, the Solidarity trade union
was formed in 1980, outlawed in 1982 but continued
underground with the support of many Poles, both in Poland
and throughout the world.
